Cardcaptor Sakura Mafia thread 2 [Day six]

whatever man i give up i literally just explained why i didn't claim earlier but yeah i know, obviously that's not good enough

i'm out. i'm literally getting too emotional about this and i'm ignoring work i'm supposed to be doing so

i'll be back probably when i'm just about to be lynched and nobody will literally know anything more with my lynch like I'VE BEEN SAYING. even if i WERE mafia, and i'm NOT, it would be 100 percent more effective to vote someone out whose role and alignment would be revealed but idk i guess people would rather lynch me because i need to learn a lesson about being ok with claiming right

I am... too tired to read absolutely everything and vote yet, but I will say I am almost definitely going to vote for Gerry, barring something else weird coming up? The lack of a kill or attempt in rollover is curious also, but I'm inclined to believe Aeiou is town for noooow because of the ~obscured role~ and Gerry's role matching that? We know Lucas was mafia's role cop, so I don't think they found out Gerry's role through investigation or anything. I guess the other option is that Aeiou and Gerry are mafia together...?

Sorry I'm not grilling drandahl, Cure. Hopefully you're not too mad, but it definitely looks like, at the very least, drandahl and Aeiou aren't mafia together.

@ Aeiou

It is actually possible that Five is correct in that originally Jeandahl was viewed as the town-ish stunner in terms of balance, prior to Five's role being changed. That said, then giving two roles to town that are stunning effects is curious, but that might explain why Tiki ended up with a stun to counter-balance it.

This is why I am a little curious about drandahl's restrictions. If he's telling the truth, I feel like we can get a good idea of what possible mafia setup might be able to resist his stun if it's a very specific thing. Plus if it reads plausibly, then that might lower him on the list of suspicious players, meaning with two mafia left we're close to just ending the game. Especially since I am confident one of Aeiou or Gerry is mafia, and it's 90% chance of being Gerry. Though there could be some crazy gambit going on between Vowels and Angel, or--basically all the scenarios Mitsu outlined a moment ago.

Lastly, I agree that Jeandahl just not using the stun N0 makes no sense for mafia.

Hmm...

I feel very weird wanting to vote for someone that wasn't stunned on a night in which there was no NK, but I am fairly willing to believe there was a large chance of myself or Cure being hit with a NK last night, thus its omission.

And Gerry is so scummy right now.

I'm just going to do this. Vote: Mr. Gerbear

But when I come back later (tonight or tomorrow), I'm going to think more on the possible scenarios (in the vein of what Mitsu outlined).

@ angel

Can you explain what you believe about Gerry's claim / reasoning?

This is also bizarre to me because in the situation where angel is mafia trying to frame Gerry, she's hesitant to lynch him in this case--maybe for later use of saying, "well I wasn't convinced, just shared my information is all" if he flipped town, but right now I feel like no one would really question Gerry being lynched. Whereas if they were both mafia, angel would just tell a favorable result for Gerry.

Curious.

@ Gerry

Gerry wrote:my role also says that my card won't show up on rollover

Gerry wrote:it would be 100 percent more effective to vote someone out whose role and alignment would be revealed

Before it was just that your card wouldn't show up. Now it's alignment, too? Which is it?

i honestly don't fucking know anymore i'm pretty sure i meant both role and alignment the first time but i'm super scummy so why would you even believe me

i'm just upset because nobody's listening like. people would've been ok sacrificing me but now when i give a fucking good reason to not be killed, suddenly it's not ok to sacrifice the other person involved. @ all of you: I WILL NOT FLIP ANYTHING, stop saying i'll flip one way or the other, it won't happen

whatever, Unvote have fun

i think that i can believe the possibility that gerry didn't think that his role would be activated when i looked into him. while i don't really understand the complete unwillingness to claim, and it does seem pretty scummy, i think that i... could believe that gerry feels strongly about it. the biggest thing for me, though, is his emotional response after i revealed my results/everyone FOS'd him. this reminds me a lot of.... gakuen 2? is that the right game wow i can't even remember the games i've played

also i just thought of this but actually i'm a bit surprised that gerry's role would be activated. not super surprised, but just a little. because i feel like my role "acts on" the person who says it (which was mitsu in this case), not what it's about??? idk i guess i can see it going both ways ugh i just don't know if mafia has some role that can mess with my results and they're trying to frame gerry :|

It's not you, the person, that's scummy. It's your interactions within the thread, as well as the results related to your role and what you've claimed. Please don't think whenever we look at you it's because of some personal flaw of your own. It's not. We're speculating and a lot of things related to you do not line up favorably. The fact that we're taking your points seriously and attempting to see if they're reasonable is because we respect you as a player. Our tone is not, "Everything Gerry ever says is useless or wrong." Our tone is, "In this specific situation, Gerry's position in the context of the game and thread appears to be scummy."

I'll give you a few questions like Litmaf. If you don't want to answer, that's fine. If you're town, we would all appreciate the cooperation, because in this situation I would know you mean well and want to help.

1. What is the good reason for not being killed? Is it because you will not show an accurate flip upon lynch, as you claim?

2. If so, you're now saying you're a miller, which means your role was not vanilla. I know you've claimed over and over that you do not like claiming in thread. I get it. But, if your role has a miller component, that means you still do have a role that can take effect within the context of the game. Why would you call yourself vanilla, then? Plus if you had died in a non-obviously miller context while claiming you were vanilla, we'd just think you were mafia and we'd be the worse for it.

3. What players do you wish to lynch or find scummy and why?

4. What is your explanation for you showing up in Aeiou's results? I know you discussed it two pages ago or so, but if you had to pick some reason, what would it be?

5. Do you think Aeiou is telling the truth with her results?

6. If Aeiou is lying about her results, then as mafia she is banking on town never questioning her results showing an obscured target, suggesting that mafia sent it in under obscurity and hoping that town doesn't try to puzzle out this information. Or she is hoping there is a town role with obfuscation that she can pinpoint it on. What would be your explanation for why she would mention there being an obscured target in her results? She could have just picked a name or suggested one of the people she knew to have acted did perform the NK, if she was mafia and trying to frame someone and/or make a strong claim for herself.

I'll understand if you do not answer these, and I hope neither I nor anyone else have upset you by pressing you this phase. Yes, I do think that you are mafia given what is happening in thread. I do hope you do not take it personally, because it's definitely not intended as such.


@ angel

angelstar wrote:but actually i'm a bit surprised that gerry's role would be activated. not super surprised, but just a little. because i feel like my role "acts on" the person who says it (which was mitsu in this case), not what it's about??? idk i guess i can see it going both ways ugh i just don't know if mafia has some role that can mess with my results and they're trying to frame gerry :|

Considering you very specifically got a result that did not indicate your action failed in the way you were told it would fail previously, this suggests your role was definitely tampered with. Gerry is claiming his own role obfuscates information. However, if it was mere coincidence and it was not his role that acted on you, then you're suggesting mafia would have targeted you to mess with your results.

I'm... not sure if I can buy into that theory from what mafia roles have been established already. Also, would there really be two roles in the game so linked to information obfuscating? I suppose it's possible, but that doesn't change the fact that Gerry's role makes little sense to me as a town role. Setting aside the point that you were tampered via the mafia trying to frame Gerry, what do you think would be the purpose of Gerry's role if it is as he describes? And why do you think your role doesn't technically act on Gerry? I would say that it has to since Mitsu's statement is contingent upon Gerry's actions, which you're ultimately investigating.

These aren't super important questions, but I'm just curious to see if your trust in Gerry's response is just gut reaction to his tone, or if the situation reads differently to you.

i really should've stopped looking at this thread but ok, here are some answers

1. yes, i've literally said that multiple times now. something will absolutely happen at rollover regarding my role and alignment not showing up in some way, i just don't know how it'll be presented. probably with zalgo text. idk.

2. i mean i guess i'm a miller but not really because miller means town that shows up as mafia but i won't show up as mafia at all. i mean i guess that's not vanilla either but i was more thinking vanilla as in i don't really have any actions. what i learned today is i should stop using terminology i don't freaking know the nuance of, fuck

tell me, if i had claimed early on "hey guys i'm a miller :) " would i not have been lynched anyway? because what happens when i tell the truth is that people don't believe me :v

3. here's the thing: there was no NK. i didn't send the NK; i'm town. for me that leaves three possibilities:

a. Aeiou is mafia and sent the NK but got stunned

b. Katagi is mafia and sent the NK but got stunned

c. Nobody sent the NK and both Aeiou and Katagi just got stunned coincidentally (which i doubt but who the hell knows what the mafia's been doing this whole time)

d. you also said you used your hide this phase? because well then that's possibility 4, in which you were the target and didn't die, and neither Aeiou or Katagi sent in the NK

e. Or, possibilities 5 and 6, one of them could've sent the NK anyway and got stunned while you hid yourself.

probabilitywise, it's more likely that either Aeiou or Katagi sent in the NK and one of them should probably be lynched today instead of me, from whom you'll get zero information after i die :\

4. do i really have to repeat myself. like. i literally LITERALLY, and even ask the hosr after the game, did not use an action that phase. like. :| it probably triggered my passive anti-investigation thing. i'm thinking now why would a passive trigger even be discussed if it weren't a thing?

or what if someone else tried to investigate me somehow, and so my action triggered? that could be a thing? who the hell knows what powers are even floating around these days when people are lying.

5. i'm more inclined to say Aeiou is telling the truth because it would've been really freaking weird to have been mafia and come up with the fact that there was an obscured thing before it was confirmed by angel. but then again, aeiou only really definitively showed what it looked like after angel showed what it looked like.

if aeiou were maf, it would be easy to show those results anyway, omitting anything too incriminating idk.

6. i mean i guess? but aeiou truthfully posting those results and saying things about the results doesn't mean aeiou's town?

-----------

i'm not upset at any of you i'm upset at myself for fucking things up for myself once fucking again. i'm literally enraged while at work right now which isn't good. someone stop me from looking at this thread until i get fucking lynched please.

Mr. Gerbear, cheer up!

p.s. idk. maybe cure was right, maf could very well have been drandahl maybe with mr. alice. this phase with all these stuns flying around, it would be easy to frame someone as attempting a nk but being blocked. and then... just not send the nk?

but thank u rasei i'm going to distract myself with homework... while at work... i just need to lie down

I don't see how Mr. Gerbear passive ability activated last night because he was still stunned, if I have my math right.

And with Sammy's death, we know passive abilities aren't active when stunned.

I... erm, will probably be taking a break from the remainder of the phase, but I really hope I didn't upset you, Gerry. ;_; Lux brings up some good points here, and I apologize if I'm coming off as pressing too hard; that isn't my intention.

Rasei brings up a good point with the delayed stun, but what bothers me is that... well, Lux describes it better than me in her comment to Angel:

I'm... not sure if I can buy into that theory from what mafia roles have been established already. Also, would there really be two roles in the game so linked to information obfuscating? I suppose it's possible, but that doesn't change the fact that Gerry's role makes little sense to me as a town role. Setting aside the point that you were tampered via the mafia trying to frame Gerry, what do you think would be the purpose of Gerry's role if it is as he describes? And why do you think your role doesn't technically act on Gerry? I would say that it has to since Mitsu's statement is contingent upon Gerry's actions, which you're ultimately investigating.

First off: it's been established that mafia has a spread of extremely powerful abilities in their own right, including, but not limited to:

Role cop
Stunner
Bulletproof/lynchproof
Jailer
Phase ender
Dayvig kill
Item generator
Silencer

I don't deny that mafia has a role that obscures alignments, but adding framer on top of this creates a situation wherein mafia has 9 or more role powers between all of them, especially several that are very powerful and would be isolated to a single player; compare that to Sammiya's role which was apparently a simple delayed kill.  

If Gerry was town, She-Ra and Five have already claimed anti-town roles (or Five's former role, that is), and I can't wrap my head around town having at least 3 anti-town roles from the beginning of the game. Consider we don't even know whether or not a doctor was in play from the beginning (though I'm assuming probably because not having one is fucked up and idk wtf protected me n0), this seems... incredibly skewed here, balance-wise.

What is the chance of the coincidence that a mafia framer acts on a player who has a role that already obscures alignment?

Finally: I... have never heard of an instance when a passive miller-esque ability gets stunned out of acting at all, since it's more along the lines of something inherently tied to the role itself, whereas other passives (bulletproofs/bombs/what have you) are like an active ability that's always "on" on the player or an extension of an active ability.

In that same vein, I've never heard of a player's ability that's been triggered by an investigation as showing them acting in any game I've played but I have absolutely no insight into how any of this works, because I don't have an ability that can obscure alignment in any way.

e: Addendum. I think it'd be likely for the mafia to target Lux on the offchance that Lux had the capacity to revive more people, given her vague hint in the night phase. I'm not quite sure how to resolve the stun on Aeiou or the stun on katagi; I'm curious as to why Five stunned katagi since I feel like unless katagi willingly gunsmithed me as a mafia member I don't think a lot of people suspect them...

ah re: my thoughts from earlier - it was just an idea that popped into my head and i was paranoid about haha

as for why i was mildly surprised my role counted as an action on gerry, it just seemed to make sense to me that either my role would always act on people or always not, but if i asked about something that didn't involve any players, then it couldn't act on anyone? except for possibly the person who originally said the statement. does that line of thinking make sense.....

but anyways! i verified with the host, and:

[4/6/16, 12:55:07 AM] angel: do i “act” on people?
[4/6/16, 12:56:03 AM] King Boo: in most cases no
[4/6/16, 12:56:57 AM] angel: are the few cases where i do, when i am investigating something about that player?
[4/6/16, 12:57:07 AM] King Boo: mhmm!

so that settles that...

hi everyone, i'm very sorry for suddenly turning so inactive, i've been super sick the past handful of days ;;

i don't want to become a True Inactive so i'm goingn to vote: gerry. I'm going to be 100% honest, i've been pretty unable to follow spec during this game, especally as it has progressed -- mostly due to all the bizarre and intricate callbacks to previous games, which is pretty crummy, as a ... semi-new player (i sure dont recall anything from vdex maf so i may as well be new lol)

i know it's a thing, though, like... players' patterns of play, i get that, but... as a 'new' player it sure just feels like everyone's following these less-than-provable hunches around

obligatory uhuhuu

Vote: Mr. Gerbear just in case I don't manage to find time during work to check back in and post D: