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Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN]

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46 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:58 pm

did u miss the part where i said there's really no need to religiously document action targets and its Actually A Waste of Time and Energy to do so. we won't learn anything from them. Tet could have been bussed. Mafia could have targeted him. Multiple people could have targeted him. There's no way to concretely figure out how the actions went. I sent in a stun last night but I did not choose tet as my target

I mean, sure, we can talk about them about them, but I don't think we should make it our main focus for the day.

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47 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:44 pm

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I stunned tet because it seemed like a good idea at the time. He's an excellent mafia player on both sides of the fence, so I figured it would be a safe stun.

good to know that he didn't send in the kill at least? However, like cure said that doesn't rule him out.

I don't mind there being a record of actions as people claim, because I'm extremely forgetful and will 100% forget things. most people are gonna probably be honest with this because any inconsistency will immediately be read as maf imo. I agree it shouldn't be our main focus, but I think a record of at least the actions that went through and the people who claim them isn't bad.

We don't particularly have a lot to go on, as per usual, so I'm not really concerned about taking what we do have and discussing it.


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48 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:54 pm

A few things.


  1. While documenting actions and claims could very well end up not helping at all, I don't see the harm in tracking it. If nothing else it could help sort out inconsistencies.
  2. Did we not get a ratio? Did I miss it? If not, it's actually possible that the Mafia just NK'd themselves on N0, which would be awfully funny, and certainly in keeping with this game's theme. Still, I don't think that's likely, since, with Kiyo as host, that defaults Alca as the Maf's #1 target in most every game.
  3. My stun vote went through onto T3t. This pleases me.


Alright, well first, T3t didn't put in the NK, if nothing else, so I probably won't vote to stun him in the future. Second, Cure, you're...acting a bit strange. As stated in my first point, while there may be nothing coming of it, having info out in the open is typically very helpful for the Town, from what I've seen.

I also think it's weird you singled out T3t. Yeah, I'm sure he did want to take out Alca as a Maf in a prior game, because, as stated in point #2, if it's not Kiyo dying first, it's Alca. Granted, T3t getting stunned just means he didn't send in the NK, not that he was Maf. Still, your reasoning seems to be an attempt to lead us to eyeing T3t for a not very good reason.

Got ninja-posted by Ninfia (also of sound mind, voting to stun T3t). I looked aver your post again while looking at Nin's post too, Cure. You mention that T3t. could have just gotten bussed. He still might have, getting stunned by a stun vote made for someone else. But with two people now claiming to have voted to stun him, seems unlikely.

"Well, you guys saying you stunned T3t could be lying." True! Though, lying about busses could get very tricky too, and lead to slip-ups. And besides, if those making these sorts of claims were eventually, somehow caught lying (in this case, Ninfia and I), that seems like poor strategy anyway, as it would pin them as likely partners, giving the Helix followers good targets to follow up on.


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49 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:01 pm

Hmmm. I agree that there's no concrete way for us to really figure out truth from fiction, but... Well, the only other things we can talk about are the facts that T3t did not send in the NK (which does not mean he isn't mafia, correct) and that alcasync died. I think it is worth considering that T3t so heavily wanted alcasync dead in a previous game, but it's hard to really weigh against the fact that alcasync is almost always the first die, if not Kiyoko, with the other of the pair usually being the second death. I think she would have a high priority as a target regardless of mafia trio.

That said, since she is a high priority target, there's always this dance that gets played. Do you try to N0 NK alca knowing she's in high consideration for protects? So who do you go for instead? Further, do the people protecting her buy into the idea, "Well, if they think she'll be protected then they'll attack elsewhere, so thus I can leave her unprotected tonight so that..." and so on and so forth.

In this context, knowing T3t's insistence upon her dying stands out a bit more since it might be a case of "Live or die by the alca NK" sort of thing. But that's for him to respond to, and still, he's technically the only player that cannot be pinned with her death (short of bussing the NK onto her, intentionally or otherwise, I guess).

So, while mafia can just say whatever we might want to hear, hearing the intended/stated actions gives us talking points at least, especially since 7 people have no clause to lie under the goal of cooperation. And as such, we can ask stuff like...

Rasei, did you just protect Sammiya out of sisterly love?

That kind of stuff, though we can be more specific. Also helps town to realize which roles we're lacking representation in, though mafia could muddy the perception with false claims. Also gives mafia information, but they have a leg up by knowing where 3 role votes are going each night. And we might catch inconsistencies. Delicious inconsistencies. It does us no harm to track it.

For the record, I did a bus, and I'll reveal the targets after more people respond since I think I can get us some information based off of the claims coming in already. One of my targets was mentioned in rollover, as it were.

@ Tiki: The ratio is in the rollover. "1d 7t 3m 0s". Kiyoko's clever way of placing the ratio in the time-stamp.


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50 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:08 pm

Ooh, Lux, we might be public transportation buddies! OOO:

Also, I'd actually rather have an action log rather than not. I know it might not actually be all that helpful, and it definitely shouldn't be super-obsessed over, but it's not like it's super detrimental either, right? o':


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51 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:53 pm


HEAR ME


I voted to protect myself last night so that I may continue serving Lord Helix into the coming days. Had a feeling a Dome Cultist would stun me or kill me. I was right. I was given vision by the Helix and I have been rewarded for my obedience. Look to His coiling countenance and you, too, will be saved. Listen to my words, let antiquated corkscrew truth wash over all 360 degrees of you.




Cure wrote:did u miss the part where i said there's really no need to religiously document action targets and its Actually A Waste of Time and Energy to do so. we won't learn anything from them.

We learn intent and what people are willing to admit to. There is nothing to lose documenting these actions and if there's nothing else to go on, listening to the reasons people acted on what they acted on are a good start.



Rasei wrote:At this point the only person that I will not vote for is T3T

Just as He has spun my soul out of the darkness of the ledge, so too has He spun causality so that this statement could be said in honesty for the first time.



Lux wrote:In this context, knowing T3t's insistence upon her dying stands out a bit more since it might be a case of "Live or die by the alca NK" sort of thing. But that's for him to respond to, and still, he's technically the only player that cannot be pinned with her death (short of bussing the NK onto her, intentionally or otherwise, I guess).

I insisted on nothing, and you will find that Alca has died early more times without my involvement than with it. She is a strong player and everyone knows that. I've traditionally gone for you first if available, after Kiyo of course.

There is no reason to even entertain the idea of a mafia play that relies on both the stun and the bus hitting correct targets. I'm a little weirded out that anyone would suggest it. Due to how the game is played, that would be incredibly unreliable. Remember only one stun, one bus, and one protect go through per night total. And on top of that it's randomized. Would any single one of you go for that chance N0 to raise false clears especially when it failing could be disastrous?



If ever I am to be martyred for my beliefs, look to those who immediately doubted. No matter what kind of mistrust lingers from previous non-crustacean lives I may have lived, the facts are that I am the follower with the least chance to have done harm to anyone. Some people are focusing so hard on the fact that I still might have in spite of that, and not focusing on much else. That should raise some eyebrows.

I am ready to strike down with immediate and righteous fury upon those who would show even a semblance of wavering faith. Blood and holy fire will cleanse the filthy and absolve the innocent.


Vote: Flareon





Until we talk more about who would be best to burn.

I am very carefully looking at the people who are still looking at a grand mafia plan to absolve me of suspicion with a stun as a viable thing in a game where literally everything is randomized.
As I think the entirety of town is vanilla, and mafia might not have known that. Which makes the fact some people suggested it as viable right off the bat a very interesting topic of conversation.

If anyone has information that says this is wrong, now would be the time to speak up.




Kiyoko wrote:

alcasync was killed

Alcasync was RELEASED.

OP is a bundle of sticks.

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52 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:03 am

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No, Jay Leno was released. Alca is dead in the gutter.

You monsters.


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53 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:17 am

why this happen


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54 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:36 am

Luxaria wrote:That said, since she is a high priority target, there's always this dance that gets played. Do you try to N0 NK alca knowing she's in high consideration for protects? So who do you go for instead? Further, do the people protecting her buy into the idea, "Well, if they think she'll be protected then they'll attack elsewhere, so thus I can leave her unprotected tonight so that..." and so on and so forth.

Well, were I of the Dome persuasion, I would feel pretty good about goin after Alca on N0, even with protects as a thing. Why? Because of the ability that would both be my greatest weapon, and greatest weakness.

The bus.

I don't think it would be out of line to play the odds and have one, two, or even all three of my crew vote to bus Alca with someone else, preferably someone else who is chatty with the good spec. That way, if the bus fails, we still take out a talker. But if it succeeds, it will swap the kill to Alca, and place the protects on Alca (if there even were any) on the other player.

It would be best to control the bus as well, just so that no one ends up NKing a fellow Maf, or even him/herself! That would be even worse than getting stunned out of the NK.

Hmm, that in mind, the followers of Helix may want to put more into the bussing. Far as I can tell, the only action that could get stunned is the NK, which is very useful, but, hmm...

Would it be out of line, during N0, to say what actions we all want to vote on, but not say the targets, at least until the next day? (though that still leaves the problem of needing at least 4 people for each action, to assure a Helix is among those accounting to the vote tally, and we don't exactly have 12 players).



Last edited by Tiki The Troll on Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total


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55 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:15 am

T3tsuya wrote:I insisted on nothing, and you will find that Alca has died early more times without my involvement than with it. She is a strong player and everyone knows that. I've traditionally gone for you first if available, after Kiyo of course.

It might please you greatly to know that to this day, I cannot type "rollover" without wincing. At any rate, I do not suspect you of anything more than any other player, other than that there will eventually be a disagreement between you and Tiki at some point. I was more or less trying to work with Cure's statements and, after a fashion, play devil's advocate (coincidentally on my 666th post) as part of the process of due consideration. I am curious to see her response to your rebuttal.

As for the actions hitting correct targets and using them in a plan, I do have a theory I worked on all yesterday which influenced my role action lottery during N0. It has nothing to do with false clears, and I was going to wait until Seraph posted his action claim and let town decide if it didn't mind possibly arming mafia with strategies (though, I would imagine with three heads clunked together they would have figured this out on their own). But... after Tiki's post...

The theory I had was that since alcasync had a high chance of being protected, I wondered if mafia might anticipate this and place a NK upon a target from the next-best tier, throwing in one or more of their role actions as a bus onto alcasync from this target. If their bus goes through, then they most likely dodge a protect on the NK. If their bus does not go through, then they still (probably) kill a high priority target. This depends on how much you anticipate alcasync receiving the majority of the protects, of course.

So, with this in mind, my bus targets were T3tsuya and High Seraph. Joining them in the next-best tier were Cure and Ninfia, with drandahl as a possibility. I figured it was most likely for T3tsuya to be hit as either the primary NK target in an alcamaf universe, or as the kill/bus combo to hit alcatown. I double-dipped my odds and picked someone else from this tier, High Seraph. I excluded myself since I've never been touched on N0, plus I might have been hit with secondary protect focus and statistically not need the bus safety net.

But, more to the point, if I bussed the NK across two others then I have a chance to learn more information, after some caution/assessment. Thus, I chose T3tsuya because he is a pain in the ass as mafia, but very valuable as town, and so saving him or sniping a T3tmaf outweighed the risk of redirecting a kill onto him. From there, High Seraph seemed more likely to fit into the bus-to-alca plan than the others.

Anyway, I went for a bus to contest mafia's usage of it, since I believe they're more likely to focus on that role. Evidently mine did not go through, since two others have claimed a T3tsuya stun. Unless Cure chose High Seraph as her stun, or someone is lying, then we know either Blaire (or Seraph, if he elected to bus) got the bus off. Or the mafia got it and lied in their claims, which may be very likely.

Either way, a direct approach is probably the more practical expectation and mafia might not have engineered such plans. There are some flaws/understated aspects in my theory and attempted role action, but I'll resist rambling further.


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56 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:41 am

@tiki - lol ok

@ tet - If I'm one of the people you're talking about, I'm not suggesting that you sent in the NK, nor am I suggesting that it was a mafia ploy to stun or bus you! All I'm saying is that, having been mafia with you, I wouldn't rule you out as a mafia member, even if you weren't responsible for this particular kill. :3 in SMT you were very vocal in your wanting to kill alca asap. It's something that stood out to me, as I am someone who doesn't like to off "strong" players on the first night.

as far as nk being the only action that can be stunned, i don't think so. Any action can be stunned. Say player A votes to protect player B and player C votes to stun player A. If both actions were the RNG-chosen actions, player A would be stunned and player B would not be protected. Correct me if this line of thinking is wrong, kiyo. The bus is the only action that can kill a mafia member during the night phase, however.

I personally think outing everyone's actions is not completely in our favor, but since everyone seems to think it's a good idea. :\ My target was Ninfia.

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57 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:23 am

JOINING A MAFIA GAME WHEN YOU'RE DEDICATING YOURSELF TO STUDYING 24/7 WILL LIKELY LEAD TO FORGETTING THAT YOU EVER SIGNED UP FOR A MAFIA GAME. iM SORRY.

backreading brb



Last edited by high seraph on Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total


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[16:41:10] Kiyo / 7♦: “so lucas what do you think about this lynch?”
[16:41:10] Kiyo / 7♦: “hHHHhhhhhh hHHHHHHHHHH HHHHhhhHHhh"
[16:41:36] lucasssss: "lucas i want u to bus me and lynch me this phase"
[16:41:39] lucasssss: "HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
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58 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:20 am

ok that wasn't so difficult to backread. Took a little longer than I expected because I decided to go over the game mechanics one more time and try to make sense of things. Also because I'm multitasking. Anyway. First things first, RIP alca!

Moving on. A lot of interesting points have been made up until now despite the low activity in the thread (I'm partly to blame for that tho!). I hadn't yet considered what Luxaria and Tiki brought up, about how the mafia would potentially try to abuse a NK+Bus strategy in order to override the protections placed upon the players. I think it's definitely a valid suggestion and a likely course of action for the mafia to adopt. I have thought of countermeasures for the mafia's plan, but I'm afraid trying to coordinate efforts in this sense would feed the mafia with more information than we'd like them to have, and effectively ruin it altogether, so I'm hoping town will have both strategy and luck on our side for the rest of the game.

As a side note, I'm honored?? ? ? ?? to be considered by Lux as next-best-tier after alca, alongside T3tsuya? ??? im actually blushing wow wow wow omg ha haha

Anyways, I disagree with Cure's statement that keeping a tally of our claims is a worthless effort, and echo the other players that it's the best course of action here; as was the case with B&B mafia, we can also determine who the mafia members are on the later stages of the game on a basis of who was being most transparent through the whole game and whose claims contradict with the evidence gathered so far. Sure, it's not entirely the same case here, but as someone else pointed out, 3 players will likely feel the need to lie about their actions at some point. I can't see how this information can harm us, so even if it's not going to be a deciding factor, I don't see a problem with going along with it?? Going through the thread, I thought Cure felt scummy simply because of her opposing this initiative, but since she opened up in the end?? idk.

Obviously, I did not submit an action because... I forgot the game was going on due to studying a lot lately (I should be studying right now lmao).

Ok that's all I have to say about the N0 results. Now about this day phase, idk yet who to vote for, and since we only get one vote, I'm particularly paranoid about it. The only thing that seems clear atm is that T3t didn't send the NK, which, however, isn't exactly indicative that he is town. His post didn't incite any flunctuations in my blatantly atheistic stance either. What I mean is, I didn't manage to get a clear read on T3t's alignment just yet. Is he really a follower of the Helix? Is he just posing as a believer and is secretly acting against its teachings? (I actually have no knowledge of TPP so this attempt at writing flavor may be complete BS lmao sorry). Anyway, we still have time before rollover, as far as I can tell from my poor timezone-reading skills. So I'm not going to throw a vote yet.

I woulddd like to stress though, that lynches WILL be our primary way of killing mafia. Cure pointed out that bussing the NK is the only way to kill mafia during the night, but the probability of success for this method is extremely slim, from what I can tell, since it depends on three codependent variables:

1) Player sends a bus on the NK target;
2) Player's action is selected over the other bus actions submitted;
3) Player's action manages to direct the NK onto a mafia player.

So it's imperative, imo, that we try to establish a lynch during this phase. For now, I will stand against voting on T3t, since there are clearly better options other than voting for the one player guaranteed not to have sent the NK, and since the theory "T3t really wants to kill alca" doesn't really hold water since I think pretty much anyone would think killing alca should be a priority?? idk I would think that if I were mafia anyway. Sorry alca. I don't have a reason not to vote for any other players yet though, but I'd be willing to also give drandahl, Tiki and Luxaria a free pass this phase, since they've each offered relevant contributions (cooperation initiative + bus driver theory), even though nothing guarantees that neither of them are mafia, so this may change. I'm in no position to ask for people to participate since I only just came here, but I'd like to hear a little more from Rasei, Sammie and Blaire, if possible? :)


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[16:41:10] Kiyo / 7♦: “so lucas what do you think about this lynch?”
[16:41:10] Kiyo / 7♦: “hHHHhhhhhh hHHHHHHHHHH HHHHhhhHHhh"
[16:41:36] lucasssss: "lucas i want u to bus me and lynch me this phase"
[16:41:39] lucasssss: "HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
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59 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:51 am

Ninfia

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Hm. for some reason I was under the impression that the first action of any sort that was sent in would be the one to go through, but clearly I was mistaken after rereading the first page.

I'm gonna be honest here in that I don't really like dealing with buses because it seems like I always miss something when I deal with them, so I'll probably avoid as much of that as possible. I agree with Lucas though when he says that lynching is going to be our primary weapon against the mafia.

/rubs chin

I typically try to not bring too much baggage in from previous games because I feel like each context is super different and wanting things in one game doesn't necessarily mean the same in another game. This being said, I think that Cure's reasoning for looking at t3t so hard is pretty weak. I was maf in that game too. T3t didn't seem like he was out for Alca's blood, he seemed like he wanted to address a threat. we all did.

so I'm a little suspicious of you trying to pin the nk on his logic. it's clear he did not send in the nk, but you're trying to see his fingerprints on it anyway. that being said, I wouldn't say t3t is completely innocent because I think its too early in the game to clear anyone, but I would say there are other places to look for now.

I'd like to echo lucas' call for Rasei, Sammie, and Blaire. what are your thoughts guys!


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60 Re: Twitch Plays Mafia [HELIX WIN] on Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:53 am

Cure wrote:@tiki - lol ok

Oh, come on! If I followed up a post like that, everyone would immediately start voting for me. XD

Edit: @Luxaria, yeah, sorry...I did consider that maybe my post on bus strategy could said the Mafia, but figured they probably either figured it out, out would anyway. Anybody who played the Gakuen game could see how a bus driver could wreck a Town effort.

But yeah, didn't mean to ruin any plans you might have had. =(


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